vendile
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Post by vendile on Feb 2, 2007 0:32:39 GMT
i just don't see the ports opperating in that way - i think of it as a more high tech and larger scale version of what we basically have these days - but with Servitors for the more menial and basic stuff
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Post by thenephew on Feb 3, 2007 16:57:07 GMT
To have people to operate stuff - and they would need 'real' people - at a scale that could cope with the output of several tankers offloading a fair portion of the production of a Hive, there would need to be a massive city around an already sizable dock area. These people would need to be fed and all the city running processes associated with millions of people in a small place would need to be catered for. And then there is (however minimally) a lot of hangers-on, wasters, leisure activities etc.
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Post by Doug on Feb 3, 2007 17:38:26 GMT
That's essentially the way I'd looked at it too, with a large number of people being needed to support vairious processes in such a large port...
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vendile
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Post by vendile on Feb 4, 2007 1:57:38 GMT
yes, but my point is that they wouldn't be a population of slaves! They would be everyday folk, amittably many of them doing manual labour, but still - they would be labourers, yard masters, etc. just like there is now-a-days, but on a much much larger scale.
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Post by Doug on Feb 4, 2007 9:17:01 GMT
Why shouldn't most of them be (effectively) slaves? The Imperium's known for its horrific class based prejudice - I can see the ruling classes keeping the workers in near slavery conditions (it's cheaper for them, after all), if not actual - a bit like Victorian workhouses rather than slavery, but still nasty enough to want to escape.
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Post by inquisitorarantel on Feb 4, 2007 12:11:15 GMT
It's just more 40K to have stunted workers in hellish conditions! Especially if some of them are mutants, who mysteriously seem to fall into the machinery with amazing frequency!
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vendile
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Post by vendile on Feb 4, 2007 12:58:21 GMT
I just can't see it being like that in the star/seaport settlements tho - fair enough, its very probable on the hive-bergs - being in such places where people from other worlds will frequently be passing through means that there would be too much in the way of outside influences of well-being for all, for a slave system to work there.
I don't know if any of you have read "Necropolis", but Koleas job before becoming a gurilla is basically manual labour in an ore mine. And yet, he ain't a slave, he goes home to his own hab at the end of the day, and gets paid wages like every other man.
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Post by thenephew on Feb 4, 2007 16:19:43 GMT
It is possible I misread or misinterpreted something earlier up the line... I assumed that the land based workers would be Victorian-style slaves - not owned per se, but with no other options, and so essentially at the mercy of their shift managers as regards pay, shift length, safety measures, working conditions etc. The Hive dwellers, on the other hand, would be literal slaves, possibly petty criminals consigned to a lifetime of hard labour aboard a hive. If you do 18 hours in burning hot, fume filled, potentially lethal conditions, and then go home at the end of the shift and have a beer, watch some TV...it wouldn't seem right... I always thought that the underdeck workers would be herded from dorm to workplace in shifts, dissenters beaten, not so much fed as put in the same room as a big barrel o' gruel. Except for those jobs where it would be impractical, they would be shackled (or something similar) at all times, and left for rest periods in a hangar with regularly spaced holes in the floor for toilets. Otherwise they just don't seem slavey enough to be the real 40K not-even-class, rather than a particularly put upon underclass.
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vendile
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Post by vendile on Feb 4, 2007 18:02:36 GMT
the Victorian idea you have there does, indeed make sense, and is pretty much what would apply to most of the capitals population - though obviously they all have a certain degree of 'skill' for their particular jobs, even if it is just controlling a cargo crane or whatever.
I think that in the hive-bergs there would be a four-tiered society: At the top there is the aristocrates, trader-guilds and what-have-you. Next is the likes of medicae, admin, Third are the Victorian-esque workers - who work just like those in the land cities - tho would also include those supervising the 4th tier... Which is criminals in manual labour, doing all the really dangerous or unhealthy jobs, being sent to clean out the insides of giant machinery, that kind of thing.
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Post by Doug on Feb 4, 2007 18:24:31 GMT
Hmmm...while that works as a basic system, I suspect that it might vary between hive bergs a bit....that is, unless the world has a rigid caste system, which might work, but then again how would we fit it in with our notion of the capital and its workers? Or maybe its one so complex there are several different grades of worker?
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vendile
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Post by vendile on Feb 4, 2007 19:37:12 GMT
i think that whilst its obvious that there would be variation between the isolated hive-bergs, they would all follow a reasonably similar main social structure, with variations brought about due to random occurances such as developed tradition, extra workers drafted in during plauge, that type of completly random thing that over time makes the hive-bergs independent societies develope(or regress) in different directions.
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Post by Doug on Feb 4, 2007 22:20:28 GMT
Hmmm...makes sense...one thing I'm curious about is whether any sort of class based system would be stronger or weaker in the Capital...which, after all, is where original traditions are likely to have been maintained most, being the original settlement...yet also quite a cosmopolitan place, receiving alot of off world traffic...
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Post by vendile on Feb 4, 2007 22:33:20 GMT
i think possible the capital could be a kind of 'Mecca' of acceptance of ones station and also of quite friendly relations between the likes of manual labourers and their yardmasters and ultimately the yard owners.
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Post by Doug on Feb 4, 2007 22:41:13 GMT
Hmmm...not so sure about the friendly relations...if anything, I'd sort of pictured the workers as being worried about losing thier jobs when the new space port is complete, despite the re-assurances of their employers...perhaps that could have been the case a little while ago, and managers and workers are now inclined to look back on, "a golden age," of industrial relations?
Just so you know, I don't necessarily disagree with you on it though - in many ways, I like your idea quite alot - up to a point, I'm playing devil's advocate here, as well as exploring a few images at the back of my own mind...
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vendile
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Post by vendile on Feb 4, 2007 22:59:17 GMT
actually if you look at it that way:
"Untill the past decade, there was always considered to be a surprisingly good working relation throughout the entire chain-of-command in the dockyards of the captial. However, in recent years something has changed and the situation has slowly degenerated, yard owners no longer caring for the men they fire, just to replace them a couple months later when business picks up again. Throughout the worker communities there has been general discontent at these recent developements, for now though, they grudingly accept it and get on with the hard life they have always known. However some predict that if the situation were to get any worse there could be the possibility of labour strikes and even full-blown rioting in the captial and other ports around the planet..."
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